Meetings Matter Chatter
Industry trends and topics pertaining to the travel and meetings industry
Meetings Matter Chatter
Greener Gatherings: The Journey to Sustainable Meetings
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In this episode we introduce Thiago Araujo, our global sustainability expert. He'll give us a better understanding of what sustainability truly means and how we can make the biggest impacts. We'll discuss how quickly our clients need to take action and the small yet powerful steps each of us can take to contribute to this vital mission. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey towards sustainability, this conversation promises to inspire and empower you to make a difference. Tune in and let's embark on this journey together!
Hello there. Welcome to Meetings Matter Chatter. My name is Jenna Baker, and I'm the Vice President of Account Management at BCD Meetings and Events, and I am your host. Today I am joined by Tiago Rugo, who is our director of sustainability at BCD ME. And I've only had the opportunity to meet with Tiago once, but I was so energized by that conversation that I just had to have you on the podcast, Tiago. So welcome.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Jenna. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure to talk about sustainability.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this should be fantastic. So let's start with the basics. Tell us about your background. How long have you been with BCD? What did you do before this?
SPEAKER_01All right. All right. I joined BCD three months ago, three months and two weeks, maybe one week and a half. And before that, I have the I had this uh not linear professional path, always with sustainability, but I worked for several different industries. The late was with the Volvo Group. So I was in the industry, automotive industry side where we could see the sustainability change in the production in a more robust way. And before that, I worked for events play event players, the Olympics, and the for the United Nations a couple of years. And uh sustainability was always in the heart of most of what I've done, except for communication. I started my career with uh advertising, strategic communication, and sustainability wasn't a hot topic at the moment. So and and and all in all of this mix, I think it's important to say uh that what it brought me to uh as an added value, all these mixed experiences, was to understand that sustainability has different conversations. I think I think people should understand that there is not one big talk, you know, you have different layers, it's a layer cake, and uh as important as acting is understanding the impacts in these different layers. So otherwise you would be overwhelmed, you would always feel that you you're not you're not making an impact.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I would agree with that. I think that's why I'm so excited to have you here today because sustainability is definitely a topic that can feel really overwhelming uh at times. But before we talk about sustainability, I just want to go back a little bit. So tell me about where you're from, where is your accent coming from? You work for the United Nations Olympics. Where have you lived?
SPEAKER_01Oh, right, all right. No, I'm Brazilian, so I was born in Brazil. Uh, but I'm a vegetarian, um vegetarian Brazilian exists, uh, that doesn't play soccer and doesn't dance. Uh yeah, really. I'm a boring Brazilian, I think. Uh then I left Brazil and I lived um six months in Lisbon, two years in London, uh most 12 years in Paris, and uh moved back to Rio. And now I'm back uh in France again, but now in Lyon. So uh I can't identify the origin of my accent, but it's a mix of things, I think.
SPEAKER_00Wow, very cool, very interesting. All right, so let's get back to sustainability then. So let's begin with sort of the basics. Like we all know we're not supposed to have plastic water bottles and that sort of thing, but let's just talk a little bit more broadly about sustainability. How would you define it? What is it?
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. Uh I think we we should we shouldn't undervalue the bottles, the end of plastic bottles. These those are important actions too. But the thing is, we look at this complicated array of things and we tend to attach with the simple, like, okay, we can't have the like I'm bringing my my plastic my own bag to the supermarket. Okay, that's that's fine, and and we should all adopt uh right uh uh is more actions, right? But as as I just mentioned, this is different layers of concept. And uh, I could give you a straightforward answer, like what's the definition for me? Like, I would say that is uh making balanced choices, respecting environmental boundaries and human well-being globally, still it's too complicated as an answer. But if you take if you take the definition, I'm gonna read it because I don't want to paraphrase something that's written in stone. But if you take the definition from the ages, that the sustainable development is the development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. If you look at this for you and me, like individuals, there is a big gray area on this definition because what need what's how can we define needs? Like I'm I'm from Brazil and I've seen needs like people need food and and clean water and and safety, and uh and you you're living in now. I live in a rich country, and you too. And maybe needs now is saving for retirement, send our kids to elite schools. And I'm not saying this is the reality for everybody, I just say the needs is something that depends on where you are sitting now, in which country and in your financial conditions. And uh, we need to give give a new meaning to this, these boundaries and and and acting responsibly. That's why I think it's important to have these two variables clear in mind. The planet has limits, we cannot do things without knowing that they have impact and they have consequences, and also human beings, we've never been as good as we are now. Things are going fine for human beings. If of course, uh when I say this, someone will like trash me saying, okay, and and all this child dying because they couldn't treat diarrhea or any any any simple, of course. But if you take statistics for the the past 10, 20, 50 years, we are better and better and better. Uh, so this I think we should be proud of. When when you take your decisions, your actions, when you vote, when you buy something, uh, when you drive your car, you should know your choices have consequences and sustainability is putting this both sides of the equation. How is hitting the planet and how is hitting people? It's positive, it's negative, though I'm taking a conscious decision. And I think if you if you keep this in mind, you are you're you're fine, you're safe.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So then if we think about some of the ways that we hear, we hear people saying, oh, I shouldn't take first class on a plane because it gives off X amount of tons of carbon dioxide. And if we went to this particular hotel, you know, that has less CO2 output than others. Most people don't really understand what that means, especially when you give actual numbers, like, is 200 tons a lot or is that a little? We don't really know. And so it becomes really confusing for us. So can you just kind of explain a little bit about like what a carbon footprint is?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I can. I can. And once again, uh I think you you made a very good selection of not simple questions because once again, uh I think we I'm gonna I'm gonna put this in maybe in three different parts. The first is what is carbon footprint, right? And what's the consequence of that? So every human activity, most of human activity has some sort of emission, right? So when we talk about net zero, net positive, uh, human existence is not net positive for the moment. We may we make emissions, and when we increase these emissions, we we call this carbon emissions, but it's carbon equivalent. You have other gases that we get the greenhouse gases. So when we increase the concentration of these gases, what happens is we are trapping infrared radiation that should uh be emitted back to the into the atmosphere. We are keeping this this heating in the in the in our atmosphere, yeah, you're keeping this here in the planet, we are warming up the planet. And the the biggest challenge of all these negotiations, and we see about when we people talk about the Paris Agreement, the 1.5 degrees Celsius, etc. And you don't necessarily need to understand all the science behind that. The simple message is we what we understand today, and we have to trust some science because otherwise we are just gonna chat on WhatsApp groups and say it's a hoax. But let's say that if you reach between 1.5 and 2 degrees, if you if you if you cross this uh tipping point, we get into unknown territory, meaning that maybe this is a point of no return. Uh increasing the the the planet temperature, we are we are messing with with uh the rain cycles, we are increasing this desertification. And uh the understanding is if we reach this peak point, this this point of no return, the planet won't be able to regenerate itself anymore. It's gonna become too dry, too hot in some zones, you're gonna have several uh severe impacts uh all over the planet, and uh maybe the we we won't know our planets in our in our civilization as we know today. That that's that's the the the alert, the general alert. So when you translate this to our us, regular human beings, right? I'm not gonna talk about first class, business class, like let's talk regular people. Only 20, up to 20 percent, between 10 and 20 percent of human population get into an airplane. Okay, this is a very exclusive club. We we are among people that travel in a lot, and it's oh, you should travel less. But if you take a global perspective, it's just between 10 and 20 percent of people that fly. If we want to keep global warming up to two degrees, we should limit our emissions between two and three tones, CO2 tones per year, you, me, each one per capita globally.
SPEAKER_00Right. So you're saying each individual person should limit by two to three tons. Okay, yes, how do we do that?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, two, three tons, that's it. Everybody keeping two, three tones, we might manage to have to put things back on track, all right? But if you take a round trip, Paris, New York, this is two tones.
SPEAKER_00Oh, come on. I can't visit you. All right, okay.
SPEAKER_01No, no, but but let's let's take the next next level of the conversation because I live in France and the per capita uh emissions are nine tones. Most of many of us, we are biking, we are uh not consuming that much, we are decreasing. I I calculated last time I calculated mine was between five and six because I drive electric bar, I drive a car, but there is impact. I I'm Brazilian, so I take it uh but every two years I go to Brazil to see my family. So uh I think one one nice thing to do is you should calculate your emissions. You have a lot of tools today. You have my CO2, two tones, you have several. You could just okay, let me just see what what my impact uh is today. And uh, if you take the average, an American person has I think 16, 17 tones per year, and in India it's less than two, in sub-Saharan Africa is less than two. So we're gonna have to find a way to balance this whole thing. But for those who are we listened to this podcast and do still have okay, but what I think they have is the one tone. So just take a big hot air balloon and you fill it, it's one tone of CO2 inside. You can feel hot, a big hot air balloon with one tone. And when you fly Paris, New York, round trip, you are you yourself, just you, one passenger releasing two huge hot balloons in the atmosphere of CO2. That that's the would be the the the image of what we're doing. But I think we need a combination, we need to reduce drastically our emissions, we need to to learn how to to choose what we need to consume, and it's challenging because we are in consuming economies, our economy is based on on buying, purchasing things. And in the other hand, is how we're going to improve regeneration, because if we manage to to create more carbon sinks, if we if we regenerate forests, if you if we look after our ecosystem, we have more time to reduce our emissions and evolute and in evolve in other technologies. But if we don't, if we keep destroying the environment and increasing our emissions, we we made a choice, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's that's uh I love that is so interesting. I'm gonna go check out one of those My CO2 apps and and see what I can do. Because you're right, I travel a ton. So I could probably, if I if I cut out one, I probably am more than 16 tons personally, now that you say that. But maybe I could cut 10.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think it's important also to say why people are so fed up with airplanes. Uh I mentioned only from 10 to 20 to 20 people fly, right? But just the air travel footprint is the same as the the whole milk production worldwide. But the difference is airplanes that's like, as I said, 10 to 10 to 20 percent percent, and milk serves 75 percent of the world population. That's the choice. Like, is the same, it's the same amount of emissions, milk or airplanes? Yeah, you're gonna have to adjust both less milk and less airplanes. You cannot leave without neither neither of them, but we we we're gonna have to make some choices at certain point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I was uh actually this last weekend, I was at the Smithsonian um in Washington, DC, the at the aerospace museum, and I was in the planetarium and I was watching a video and they were talking about the planet Venus, and they said that there were so much CO2 emissions on that planet when it started out that it died and it was like a failed planet. So there's concrete evidence of what happens when we have too much CO2 coming into our atmosphere. I mean, not to be super dramatic, but ultimately the planet next to us did that and they died.
SPEAKER_01The difference is that they didn't have a choice, yes. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
SPEAKER_00All right. So I think that this is probably a question that that is a silly one, but tell me why sustainability is so important now. I mean, there's lots of companies that are giving this a lot of focus right now, right?
SPEAKER_02Sure, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not silly. It's um for those who have have been working with sustainability for a long time, it's just okay, it's a natural evolution, is getting scale, and and so many people dedicate their lives for that. But for many, many people they're not connected with the subject. It's just why it's becoming so so trendy, what's so important now? I could list many different important milestones, but I think for the our for the more recent generation, the biggest milestone was the Paris Agreement uh in 2015, is when 90 percent of the world GDP signed in an agreement, and I hope Donald Trump will remain in this agreement. Uh, 90% of the word GDP is under the Paris Agreement that says that the commitment is neutrality by 2050. It's the only way to keep below 1.5, even for two degrees. This is this is not something that people should see like politics or just promises. This is transforming everything, transforming how how we are sourcing our energy, uh, where we are investing money for forest regeneration. And of course, we are frustrated, of course, we want this to go faster. But when you see the achievement, it's already amazing for our generation. Just see how how quick it's changing. And I hope you're changing quick enough, but it is it is something that we could we can't ignore. After the Paris Agreement, we have another interesting milestone that is the SBTI, the size-based target initiative, uh, where companies come, what they're doing, they just are front runners committing to be neutral in different moments. But the the deadline is uh 2050 and cut half of the emissions by 2030. That would be the general rule. We have today about 10,000 companies under the SPTI. And uh, and that that that's that changed a lot. Why? Because if you have these big, big players that commit and they impact the value chain. So we see how we have this this domino effect, and it's happening, it's happening. I i i you and you know this. You you you you you manage a very big client, and and when when we work with big corporations, what they are doing now, I just we just had a call uh call with another client earlier today. Uh they are presenting their engagements and just saying, I expect you the same. And end of the call, you know, there is it's not it's not opening negotiation, they are just informing you that these are their commitments and you have to comply. But what makes me even more uh hopeful with of this are the companies that are not just talking about neutrality, you know, like uh my favorite one is Microsoft. Of course, they can they can do what they they are doing, they they have the means, the money, it's a software company. But what they did is instead of cutting half by 2030 and neutral by 2050, they will be carbon negative by 2030, meaning they're gonna take more CO2 from the atmosphere than the activity uh emits by 2030. This is tomorrow. And by 2050, they will compensate their whole emission history, the history of Microsoft emission will be compensated from the foundation to today. This is something that if you look, it should inspire all these major companies, and you see this kind of big issues everywhere. Apple with their their value chain is committed to be neutral by 2030. If you take Schneider Electric, also they have big commitments, but they they approach differently. They it's mandatory for all their suppliers to sign to be uh signatory of uh the global compact, the United Nations Global Compact. So it's not only about the emissions, they are committing with human rights, with all the values or the 10 principles of the global compact. So we start seeing these big players just nudging the whole value chain to the sustainable, sustainable direction. And this this for me is quite exciting. Now it's it's a daily thing, you know. And a couple of years ago, you would be celebrating one company doing this. Today is like, okay, cool, another one, you know, just keep counting. And and and and I think it's it's it's good news.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's basically a like a trickle-down effect. So the government is planning to have these regulations, the companies are coming in and saying, I'm anticipating the regulations, so I'm going to do my own thing and maybe even do it better than what the government would require me to do because it's the right thing, but also maybe that will give me more customers. But what they're doing is that trickles down to their suppliers, right? So Microsoft probably uses multiple organizations to fulfill their business. And so they put those requirements on their suppliers and so on and so forth. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. That that's the right approach. Uh, but one thing that that I'm I think is interesting to pay attention. Usually uh governments uh they run late with with the legislation. Like uh the private sector have the innovation, and then we oh my god, now we don't know what to do with social media, or we don't know what to do with with artificial intelligence. How are we gonna we're gonna cope with that? Uh with sustainability is the opposite. When especially in Europe, when you see uh what just passed in the in the in European union is the CSRD and CS3D. I'm I'm not I'm not gonna kill uh your audience with a boredom, but um is shows that the governments are taking a huge step ahead and and uh and they're gonna take even the the the front run is the the first to to innovate, but even then they are struggling to to find that the positions, but I think it will be one of the first times that you see government leading, really leading the way uh to to innovation.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So coming back to BCD and our program, our meetings and events management, what can we do now to help our clients prepare? Because the clients are presumably starting with bigger. I personally manage a lot of uh life science customers. I know that they're targeting manufacturing because that's obviously a big polluter. So that's probably who they're focused on right now, but eventually they're gonna come knocking on our door. It sounds like you were just on a phone call with a client, so maybe they're knocking on our door now. But um, but what can we do to start helping our clients prepare?
SPEAKER_01We we we got extra time, okay? Just trying to put yourself in the in a client's shoes and you have your materiality assessment and you see what your where your impacts are and what you control, what you don't control. Those would be the first things you're gonna manage the big impacts and what you don't have control. It's where you're gonna prepare for the the transformation, and then you go to smaller things uh once you you you already eliminated the first lines. Meetings and events is not on the top of the list because it's manageable. Okay, some of the clients they need these meetings, they have to, like life is I think it's true for life science, especially. So, but they're gonna figure out. I mean, it's not something when I said when I was working at Volvo, events didn't make the list because we know this is something we manage, we control that. It's no problem. If we have to travel uh with a clean transportation and spend six months in another country, if that's the only solution, okay, maybe we're gonna do that, you know, we we're gonna adapt, but that's not what what's gonna kill our business if we don't we if you're not resilient enough. Once said that, what I see uh from these big clients is the sustainability team is not taking the time to see the events and management teams. They are they are really they're in crossfire because they they see all the policies, they hear people saying that it's coming, and they turn to the agencies, and the agencies say, It's your call. Like you choose the destination, you choose the hotel, it's your call. And and they they need guidance, they need to have clear information, like what would be the most sustainable solution? Because talk about sustainable event. This is not true today, and it might not be true never. I mean, uh, you're always gonna be carbon intensive. I don't think I don't see, I don't think we're gonna see clean airplanes uh in the near future. So uh we're gonna have to to to think this differently. My approach would be rethink a new social contract with our clients because if they keep in their minds, like we're working with the scale and volume, and I want to save money, it's hard to have sustainability conversation in that kind of scenario because you are just keeping the volume, you're saving time, you don't want to spend more. So Okay, sustainability is not necessarily spending more money. It's not the case because if you are producing events and you have for political reasons, you are doing this in Qatar, but you could do this in Europe, it would be cheaper and look less. It's not about money, it's about a political uh motivation. Or so I think uh we're gonna have to build with our clients a new way of doing things. Take the R framework from the circular economy. The three firsts are refuse, rethink, and reduce. Okay, so you keep this in mind, and uh, and I think it's brilliant because our business was built like most of what we do in a time of abundance, limitless resources, we just want to do more and and and be in grow. When we understand that it's not the case, uh we have some raw motifs that we are running out of them and and uh we are just producing waste in the proportion that we cannot manage anymore. So we are working to rethink this model. If we think that we could, with the clients, get a model that we refuse to do what we don't have to, okay. You you you're gathering people, international travelers, to just listen to keynotes, but maybe maybe just could send a YouTube link, you know, with a nice gift and a box of chocolate. I don't know. You know, they got they're gonna have a good sensation, they have the the sugar heads and and they watch the video and they have they get the same information. I'm not saying we should avoid it, refuse our clients who want to do keynote speakers for 500 people in in Tokyo. What I'm just trying to say is we're gonna have to figure out as with the clients, what are the best model? So is is this event essential? It's important if if it doesn't get in the important, very important, essential. Don't do that, find something else. Let's do this virtually, let's, I don't know, make a book about that. I don't know. Let's just let's think this differently. The other is reduce for me, reduce can be in two two different ways, could be gathering events or opportunities and do less, so you're reducing all the logistics and and or could simply combining with existing events that that your people would fly to and meet with people anyway, but it still has to be in the equation, you know, it's obvious what I'm saying, but people don't have this systematic approach, like how important it is, and we should also listen to the attendees. How important was this for you? You know, you should have clear KPIs. I took an airplane, I went to Berlin, it's it's an internal event, was great, energizing. How many people did I mean in scale from zero to 10? Should I be there? Should I go there next week next year again? And and I think if we change this setup and approach, it will help a lot. But it's not it's not an easy thing to do with the client. Another thing is, and that that is an agency agency obligation. I think we have to have constantly an evolving sustainable offer. We have to lead this, find the most sustainable hotels, the most sustainable transportation solution, the most sustainable suppliers, and make our clients to understand look, this costs 10% more or 20% more, but you're cutting 40% of your emissions. But then I have a second part of this conversation. What we don't know, we don't avoid clients should offset. Because we're not going to understand the value of carbon as long as we're not paying for the carbon. And if they're not paying, just okay, release this in the net, in the atmosphere, and it's fine, and and and life goes on. This is one way to approach your business. But if you say, okay, I'm I'm doing this in in Madrid or or in Zurich or let's say in in New York, because 90% of the people are coming from North America, no matter where. But okay, I cut 50-70 percent of this YouTube and I pay for the rest, then you finally you you you you have a KPI to compare with previous editions. If you don't have, it's just okay, maybe next time, and we have to stop with this okay, maybe next time, but next time, you know, it and our industry is not with as much pressure as other industries, but you know, we will come. That's for sure, we'll come. But if we don't manage to to influence the destination choice, the venue choice that we'll of also this define the transportation mode, red meat, why why we we need to eat red meat all the time? I'm a vegetarian since 2007. I'm fine, you know, I'm doing sports three times per week, I'm not dying. I I don't I'm not full for energy, but because I have a 60 years old girl and a 12 years old girl, that's why I'm always tired, not because I'm not eating meat. But if people cannot understand that red meat is one of the beef for me uh in carbon emission, that most of deforestation today is uh is because of red meat, and uh that you have this massive loss of calories. So, even in terms of logics, I give to the cattle 100 calories, I just recover three in the beef. You know, even this, you look at this, it's not clever. I mean, I don't want to insult people who love barbecue, you know, just just reduce, do this once every two weeks, you know, we'll be fine. And and and you don't have to, and the clients should be events, should be red meat free. We should never have this kind of barrier to adapt and change tradition, you know. Um, at least it's my point of view. It's easy for a vegetarian to say that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's relatively easy to do, also. Okay, so you what you're saying is you had said that sustainability has kind of two areas, right? So it's protecting our planet and then looking after our people. And so if we relate that to meetings, we can say that there's me, sometimes meetings have to occur. If it's a life science customer, they might be working on important drugs that will save people. So it goes along with the sustainability principles, but at the same time, we have to make those smart choices. So maybe we don't refuse in that case to have the meeting because it's critical, but instead we uh reduce and we don't have red meat and we don't have plastic bottles and we choose a hotel and a DMC that are uh or a transportation company that that are more um efficient.
SPEAKER_01You offset, you offset your emissions too. Yeah. You know, I I think it's important for us to also once you take a vacation for and once again bring it to our level, individual level. You know, you shouldn't torture yourself. You know, enjoy your trip, enjoy a vacation, but just be conscious that uh that you know my my family may go to Brazil. We we might have this 10 tons emission that you you you can you can compensate yourself, you can offset your your your own emissions, or you can maybe try to engage differently. But we just need to to understand that we we don't have to stop living. We're gonna keep emitting, we're gonna keep producing pollution. We just have to choose and find a sort of value for carbon. Is um what I'm doing is is useful. Okay, I'm taking the best, I'm living the best time of my life. Okay, that's great. Have uh one, two, three weeks vacation. What you can't have is the best time of our life every year because that's not sustainable. And we could go on, it's just I think it's a it's a quite question of balance. No, it's like cuisine is how we're gonna add some some ingredients, and if we put too much, but it just wasted your food.
SPEAKER_00That's good. So, okay, so if if we want to offset though, either as an individual or if we want a corporation to offset, how do we do that? You don't mean just like plant a tree, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, what do you what do you do today? Um, there is a carbon market, okay. So you have several projects that they they create, they generate carbon credits, and there's there's a cost. So also you have to be really aware because you have some schemes that people are gonna say three dollars per ton, so they're just taking your money and doing nothing. Uh, but you have many very serious projects, and you can support them, you know. Just uh we have initiatives like there's one very interesting. I don't want you to to do free advertising in your podcast, but there's one one that I like uh a lot. But it's called Time for Planet in France. You you you buy you buy sort of of uh shares on their projects and they're investing in because what you could do, you could you could just plant trees and and you're gonna generate some some some credits in the long term, but you could also invest in very new technology with a bit more of risk. So, okay, maybe I might not get my credit, but if this thing works, it's gonna change a lot. It's it's in and a lot, a lot of of big investors are doing this today. They are taking risks on technology that may not might not see uh the light of the day, but they they know that if it works, we'll change the life of everybody. So you could do that, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna offset my own emissions, and uh it's better than not, it's not a free pass for polluting, it's more like okay, I'm doing this anyway, so at least let me clean up my mess. Uh, I think it's a nice way to feel as less anxious about about the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like that. I like that. Yeah, you had um mentioned that there's uh when we had spoken previously, that there's something called climate anxiety, right? Yeah, what is that?
SPEAKER_01That people are just feeling out of control or um no, yeah, also, but no, I I think this is this is an important conversation that that we have to really to address with uh the right toes. You know, I I see people talking about climate anxiety, like if you're talking about teenagers that are over using social media, like oh, people are killing themselves or they are feeling uh depressed because they don't look like I don't know, this person or that person. It's not the same, you know. I I have two girls and and and one is is is now a pre-uh teenager, and it's easy, you just take the phone off, you know. You just uh you do your parents' work. It's not this. I'm not saying that easy. I know that so many people are really struggling with that. It's hard, but but you know, there is solutions. You can find professional help, you can just turn off a phone, stop paying for the internet on the smartphone, whatever you can manage these different ways. When it comes to climate change, it's like your home is on fire, but you don't have you don't you can't run to the straits, you're like, okay, it's on fire. So you can just be in panic, you can be in denial, and and and and uh I I wouldn't I wouldn't advise you to do that. I and with that we have we have we have this spectrum of anxiety, worry, and going to action, you know, even depression. Uh it's it's it's a sort of path. Okay, I understood my house is on fire. How bad is the fire? What I have to do now, should I'm gonna call the firefighters, or should I I do something myself? You need to assess the real situation and place yourself and use this weird feeling that you are not used to to make you act. Because if you just paralyze the paralysis by analysis, you know, we're not getting getting anywhere. But you know, I have some some interesting numbers when it comes to anxiety, and it's uh it's not alarming, it's not something that oh, we could avoid that. No, we cannot. We could avoid all global warming, but now it's real. We can't avoid anxiety, it's gonna, it's gonna hit and and and and it's gonna hit strong. If you see Google search uh relates to climate anxiety from 2018 and 2023, it increased by 4590 percent. So you see how how people are acknowledging their their feelings related to climate change. Um, a report from the World Organization Health Organization says that over 1 billion people globally are expected to experience mental health issues by 2050 due to climate change. So it's something that we should be worried about. I I could keep going. The Landsat in 2022, 59% of young people aged 16 to 25 were extremely or very worried about climate crisis. But I I wouldn't see these as the alarming part because I think this is a natural response of the situation. What I think we need to be clever enough is not let these people in the dark room of hopeless ignorance. When I say ignorance, just they need more information. Like there is a solution, there are progresses going on, and you can act. Do not close yourself and say there is no solution. My god, I'm gonna, it's not gonna bring you anywhere. And uh, and that's I think that's the challenge we have today. Like, okay, there is a fire, we're gonna work to control this, and we we might fail, but better fight till the end. You know, I never saw a firefighter get get in front of a building and say, Oh no, it's gonna be hot. I'm gonna just sit here and be depressed. No, go do your duty. And for us as uh citizens, all right, there is a fire. Let's let's organize and and and do what we have to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there are, as you said, there's lots of tools out there to measure your CO2 output to contribute to offsetting. So there's things people can do. Now, on the flip side, there's people that probably aren't listening to this podcast because they could care less about sustainability and maybe they never will. What should we do about those people?
SPEAKER_01You mean the deniers?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, uh a few years ago, I would I would spend a lot of time with the deniers. You know, I I felt like this is a this is a fight I I need to win. And uh, I don't know if I'm getting growing old or I don't know, I don't know why I gave up, I gave up on them. You know, if it's a love, is a person that I love, like family, friends, I have patience. You take the time, you find a way to relate facts with what is precious for them, you show them examples, then you do the long run. This is this is the advice I would I would give for anyone who has have family and friends that are on this idea of climate change is a hoax, it's not doesn't exist, uh it's just natural adaptation, whatever. When it comes to to the professional environment or society, I wouldn't spend much time with the deniers, I wouldn't ignore them, it's important to count them, of course, but you know, I am more kind of uh critical mass social dynamics person. This is a term from nuclear physics that that where amount of substance needed to sustain a chain of reaction is limited. You don't need the whole thing, you need a fraction of it. And uh, if you apply this in social science, you you just need between 20 and 30 percent of the critical mass to turn to make the whole change because people they they learn with their peers, they see people doing and say, Oh, it's not that difficult. Oh, yeah, it's it's nice what they're doing, and you can find a way to bring people on board without making this uh collective, autocratic uh way approach, like from now, everybody has it's not gonna work. You are in a different moment. This is a journey, we are not all on the same part of this journey, we don't have the same uh ability or open mind to listen. And you know, changing behaviors is one of the biggest challenges. And uh, what I think is if you have to the best way to talk about the deniers is spend 80 percent of your time with the engaged ones, uh, 15 with the neutral ones, and 5% with the deniers. Stay time with them, talk, listen to the the theories. I think it's important for us to keep a track on them.
SPEAKER_00Well, that gives me hope. I like that that only 20 to 30 percent of the population has to care, and that will influence the problem.
SPEAKER_01That's all what that's all I need. I mean, they're really engaged, it's not people just gonna say, Yeah, I'm for rates, but then uh the behaviors that doesn't apply. Incoherence is a big part of our society, too. But if you have the 20, 30 percent of the true believers, they're really gonna change and and and engage and and spread the gospel, then you're gonna see change happening properly. And I think in a company should be that like, okay, let's talk about the 30 more engaged here and let's change everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. I've got one last question for you. So you've been in your role just for about three months here. Can you talk about your goals, your 2025 goals, what you're looking to do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is a bit early for me. Uh, what I would say, if I just could show one or two things, is definitely working uh the Christine Erickson with uh to create uh a sustainable offer line. I think it's important for our clients to be capable of seeing the difference between, okay, this is this, those are certified hotels, but those are the state of the art and sustainability, and and I should definitely uh do my events down there or a couple of them there. So for me, it would be the offer. We should invest a lot of energy in offer. A second one uh is how we can modernize our sustainability toolkit. Today we have different spreadsheets, good information, good tools, but I think we need to have these digital, easy to deploy and train our colleagues how to use them. Because once again, you see four different spreadsheets, you see a lot of data, and and just say, My God, I'm not gonna do that. It's too complicated. But if you have this in a friendly environment and people do once and twice and say, Oh, come on, it's not that complicated. It took me one hour and a half, and everything's done now. So that that that I think would be two two nice things to score in 2025, but I might bring new surprises. I hope.
SPEAKER_00I'm sure you will. And I think that would be great. Anytime that things are easy, it makes it so much easier. If you have that, as you said, this hotel is sustainable, this one's not. It just makes it so much simpler to for someone to choose the right answer. All right. So, last question. I know that I said that was the last question, but super last question. For anyone listening to this podcast, what is the one thing you want them to take away?
SPEAKER_01One thing, um, share with our colleagues that sustainability is a journey, and it is way nicer if we do the walk together. You're not alone. We are all together on this one, and we should count on each other. So it's a journey. Let's do it together.
SPEAKER_00Let's do it. Well, Tiago, thank you so much. This was a fantastic conversation. I loved learning from you, and I wish you a wonderful 2025 with all those goals coming to life and all the surprises that you'll bring. Thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Jenna.
SPEAKER_00That's all the time we have for today. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to our channel. Next time, we'll bridge a generational gap by understanding attendee needs across different age groups at meetings. I'm Jenna Baker. Thanks for listening to Meetings Matter Chatter.